Ep.66 Mental Wellness: Coping Skills for Managing Anxiety When Leaving a Narcissist in Midlife

This may be MJ’s favorite episode! Join MJ as she talks with a  remarkable woman who shares her journey of leaving a manipulative and narcissistic spouse. Despite her successful career in tech and multiple talents, she faced a struggle at home that challenged her self-worth and independence. Through her story, the podcast delves into the nature of narcissistic behavior, the impact it has on relationships, and the difficult path towards recognizing, leaving, and healing from such a toxic dynamic. This amazing woman  highlights the importance of self-awareness, the role of therapy and external support, and understanding  social and relational intelligence in order to free yourself from unhealthy relationships. Her  experience and  insights delve  into recognizing one’s self-worth, the challenges of leaving a narcissist, what to be aware of to avoid entering such a  relationship. 
Why Is It Always About You:  https://www.amazon.com/s?k=why+is+it+always+about+you&crid=2Y9S
Too Good To Leave Too Bad To Stay:  https://www.amazon.com/s?k=too+good+to+leave+too+bad+to+stay&crid=3BLM6DLXA2T

Creating Midlife Calm is a podcast designed to guide you through the challenges of midlife, tackling issues like anxiety, low self-esteem, feeling unworthy, procrastination, and isolation, while offering strategies for improving relationships, family support, emotional wellbeing, mental wellness, and parenting, with a focus on mindfulness, stress management, coping skills, and personal growth to stop rumination, overthinking, and increase confidence through self-care, emotional healing, and mental health support.

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About the Host:
MJ Murray Vachon LCSW is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with more than 48,000 hours of therapy sessions and 31 years of experience teaching her Mental Wellness curriculum, Inner Challenge. Four years ago she overcame her fear of technology to create a podcast that integrated her vast clinical experience and practical wisdom of cultivating mental wellness using the latest information from neuroscience. MJ was Social Worker of the Year in 2011 for Region 2/IN.

About Inner Challenge:
Inner Challenge was created in 1995 as a summer camp for girls, and spent 20 years being tested and "refined" by junior high students who insisted on practical Mental Wellness skills that made them feel better. Inner Challenge has been used in many businesses, and community organizations. In 2017-2018 Inner Challenge was a class for freshman football players at the University of Notre Dame. It was these students who encouraged MJ to face her fear of technology and create a podcast. Inner Challenge will soon be a Master Class available for those who want to stop feeling like crap.

To connect with MJ Murray Vachon LCSW, learn more about the Inner Challenge or inquire about being a guest on the podcast visit mjmurrayvachon.com.

Creating Midlife Calm is a podcast designed to guide you through the challenges of midlife, tackling issues like anxiety, l...

Transcript

 Ep.60 Mental Wellness & Leaving A Narcissist!

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Inner Challenge podcast. Today we have the privilege of speaking with a truly remarkable woman. In her 60s, she retired over a decade ago after a highly successful career. Armed with a degree in engineering and an MBA, she worked in tech and navigated through the fields of management, strategy, and operations. Beyond her professional expertise, she possesses a multitude of talents, hobbies, and friends. However, one of the most significant accomplishments in her life is her courage to leave a marriage with a narcissistic spouse. As a clinician, I can attest, this is no small feat. The term narcissist is often used loosely, sometimes accurately, and sometimes not. It has become a daily word in American life. Our guest today will delve into her journey. A journey of survival, self-awareness, and increased knowledge of social and relational intelligence. Throughout our conversation, we aim to shed light on what narcissism truly entails. The complexities of falling into and coexisting in such a [00:01:00] relationship, as well as the difficulties of breaking free and the steps towards healing and rebuilding. In preparation for today's discussion, I've shared with my guests a model co created by Toni Henke- Wheeler and myself. Our model of social and relational intelligence is featured on episodes 11 and 59. I hope that by leveraging this model, we can gain deeper insight into cultivating healthy relationships, a cornerstone of mental wellness, and identifying those relationships that may be detrimental to our well-being. I want to begin by thanking our guest immensely for agreeing to join me on the podcast today.

Guest: You're very welcome. Happy to be here. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: I'm really happy and really interested in this topic. Just today, my podcast consultant sent me a TikTok that is 50 episodes of a woman getting out of a narcissistic relationship. It seems to be Its moment in our culture for us to try to wrestle with this and to really try to understand it. [00:02:00] So let's dive right in. I want you to share with our listeners what it's like to be in a relationship with a narcissist. 

Guest: To begin with, it's very charming. He made me feel like I was the most important person. Very loving and special. It was great in the beginning. He was charming. Then over time, I learned that he wanted to totally isolate me where I was only in a relationship with him. He didn't want me to have any friends. He didn't want me to go visit my family. Even if I could get out of the house to go shopping for a couple of hours, it was going to be a huge accomplishment on my part. It was totally controlling and consuming. And It was constantly being berated and put down and told how little value I was. Even though I was the breadwinner, the income earner, he didn't work and yet it was a constant barrage of telling me how I wasn't good enough in so many ways that it really takes a hit on yourself [00:03:00] worth.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: How many years were you in a relationship with him? 

Guest: Ten. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: How long was it where he was charming and so attentive and it felt like, wow, this is such a good human being to be in a relationship with?

Guest: I would say probably a couple of years he was on what I would call good behavior. What I didn't realize until I look back in hindsight is how it's like the frog and boiling water, and the temperature's just getting turned up. It's like brainwashing. You don't realize, you think that it's just a little thing, that it's not that big a deal. You don't realize how over time you're slowly losing your independence, your rights, yourself worth, everything, because it's just so gradual. The situation and the conflict and the criticism becomes so severe and so demeaning that is easier not to get into the conversation than it is to stand up for yourself and argue for your rights. I'd never been in a relationship with anyone like that before and [00:04:00] didn't realize what I was dealing with. I was constantly made to believe it was my fault that I was not doing what I needed to be doing to have a better relationship.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: That brings up the obvious question. How do you define a narcissist? 

Guest: As someone who. doesn't understand empathy at all. The world and you and everything exists totally for them. They don't understand any boundaries. I didn't understand that either until I had been in a relationship with someone like that, who wants to be the center of attention for everything. Everything is always about them. And cannot understand anything that doesn't have to do with the world revolving around what their needs are. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: That's, really a textbook definition. That person who just has an unquenchable thirst to be admired, to be the center of, not always the public. Former President Trump suffers from a narcissistic personality disorder, and he is someone who has an unquestionable [00:05:00] thirst to be in the public eye, but most narcissists have an unquestionable thirst to be the center of a person or a few people's world. It could be their spouse and their children is what often I see. That's really what you're explaining and they really lack empathy. Can you give an example of a time when he lacked empathy? 

Guest: Oh, there are so many. I remember one example. I lived on the West Coast and my family is from the East Coast. I was very close to my family, my mother in particular. I was close to all of my aunts and uncles. My relatives were starting to get older and I had one aunt that passed away, and obviously I went back for the funeral. And he said, You really should reconsider. I think, as they're getting older, you're not going to need to go back for their other funerals and you're not going to need to do that. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm always going to go back. My family's close. I'm always going to go back and do that. That, it's just one, one example, [00:06:00] but there were very many. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: The model that I work from for social intelligence is that we share facts with people, we share interests. We share our opinions, our emotions, and our values. In an intimate relationship, those last three categories, sharing our opinion, sharing our emotions, sharing our values. When we're dating someone, when we're married, we want mutuality. In the beginning, when he was charming, would you say he was more mutual?

Guest: It seemed to be. For example, we would take trips together or we would go back and visit my family and that seemed to be more mutual. He had been laid off from his job because they had been bought out, which was understandable from that perspective and people get laid off. But he had led me to believe he was going to get another job and was going to go out and work. After two or three years, it became apparent that wasn't his plan. And he wanted to basically be at home and tell me what to do and control me through my job. He was very interested because he didn't work to know about what my [00:07:00] job was and what I was doing. I was a director and a very large, high-tech company. So, I had a lot going on and he would want to problem solve and tell me what to do in my job and how to do it. Which, initially, that's a good thing to bounce ideas off someone and, have someone that you think is mutually in your best interest. But what I learned over time, he was doing that so he could eventually manipulate me even in that. Even though I knew what I was doing, I was successful, I was smart in my job, but he would start telling me things like, they're going to find out about you and it's going to catch up with you. Basically, telling me I had imposter syndrome was what he was doing and telling me I wasn't good enough to be doing the job I was doing to plant, those seeds of I'm not worthy to be in those jobs and doing that. It was hard to believe. It was always putting me down and it was it was telling me I wasn't good enough to be doing, whatever it was I was working on. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: One of the [00:08:00] experiences I had with a couple that I want to share with you and get your feedback on is that the man was a narcissist. One of the things he said was, I could give so much in the beginning because I was so happy to have this relationship that I had more ability to tolerate her needs, but as the relationship has gone on, you keep changing what your needs are and they are not in line with mine and I can't tolerate them because they're wrong or they're stupid. That really syncs up with your image of being the frog in boiling water. Frogs like water. It's their natural habitat. But they don't like warm water. And water slowly rises its temperature. And before one knows it, the frog is at risk. And that's what I hear you saying. 

Guest: That's exactly what happened to me. I did not see that. I was raised in the South. I was raised and role modeled for me [00:09:00] that the man was the head of the household. Even though I'm a very strong, independent woman. I didn't understand the term narcissist and didn't realize that was what was going on with me. It's such a slow progression over time. It really is a brainwashing. Where I came to normalize all the things that were happening. And what finally got to me my own health started to suffer because of this internalization that I was always a problem and feeling less and less worthy. It was total lack of freedom and being berated and put down constantly. He would tell me how ugly I was. He would tell me how unattractive I was and how old I was. At my age, I would never find another man that would love me as much as he loved me. To not even think about leaving him because I would never be able to find anybody else. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: I want to go on record, because I just met you minutes ago, that you are incredibly attractive. You're in your 60s, and you look like you could be in your mid 40s.[00:10:00] 

Guest: Thank you. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: I'm not saying that to be nice. I'm saying that to be factual and that is shocking. But that's the form of manipulation, which is part of a narcissist is that they take something that is someone's vulnerability and we're all vulnerable about our looks and they exploit it for control. When you think about what made you vulnerable to being in a relationship with a narcissist, you didn't even know this type of person existed. You were brought up in a culture that leaned towards men being the  head of the household. In my, model, I'm really encouraging men and women to look at how they share emotions and opinions and values in relationships as mutual, as equal. Even though I know historically, and also biblically, there's a lot of people who are raised with the idea that the man is the head of the household. That really doesn't work for [00:11:00] women and I want to say it doesn't work for men because a mutual relationship where everyone's voice is heard and people have to figure out the tensions really allows people to be intimate and healthy. I guess you would agree with me that you were really vulnerable to connecting with a man like this because of those two factors.

Guest: That's exactly right. I had also tried to convince my husband that, let's get some counseling because it's, Obviously, no, it was all my fault. We didn't need to go to counseling, that kind of stuff. My defining moment was I had rotator cuff surgery. He had isolated me and we had moved. I had no friends and no one to help me. When you have surgery, you have this ice machine, and you can't use your arms. So, you need some help to, to be able to feed yourself, to change the ice out and he acted like he was doing such a favor to me to just change out the ice in my ice machine and just get me something to eat. Thank God for the still [00:12:00] small voice that's inside your head. All of a sudden I just looked in the mirror. I was like, who are you? Who are you? Who are you? That was my wake-up call. God just speaking to me and saying, you got to get out of this. That was where I started totally shifting and thinking, I got to figure out how to get out of this. Or I'm going to die in this relationship. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Wow. I'm blown away because in my mental wellness program, I talk about the most profound question in our life is Who Am I? And we answer it again and again. And sometimes, if we know that we should connect with that question, it will save our life. I have goosebumps because I've had other people tell me this kind of story where they were thinking of killing themselves and then they said, Who Am I? Or they were going to go do something illegal and they said, Who Am I? And in this case, you have a moment of Who Am I? And I'm assuming from that moment you began to figure out how to get out of [00:13:00] the relationship. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. 

Guest: I did. I started thinking, how could I save myself? Luckily my boss at work had used an executive coach that he had found very helpful. He thought she would also be helpful for me and my career. I was working with her and she helped me to see that if I wasn't helping myself first, I couldn't help other people. This applies, of course, not only to your career, but your personal life as well. I bought some books that helped me. Thinking about how to start taking it day by day seeing things in in a different light. I also started to, see a counselor anyway, even if my husband wasn't going to go with me, I started seeing someone on my own. I described to her some of what was happening. It was so bad in the relationship I was in. And I just think, how could this happen to me? I'm strong. I'm very independent. I've [00:14:00] always been. Been able to get and do what I needed to do very tenacious. And the write ups from my bosses and that kind of thing. It got to the point that I couldn't even think what words to say to my husband in a conversation. The counselor would help me say, I would explain to her what was going on, and she would give me the words. I would write them down and then use those words in the conversation. That's how bad it was and how Screwed up my psyche was in being able to be in a relationship with this person. It was so bad. He was very intuitive. That's the thing I've learned about narcissists too. They're extremely intuitive. So, he could sense something was up. And I was getting to the point where I was really questioning being in relationship with him. He actually went to one session with my counselor and from that one session, she immediately knew he was a narcissist. Oh, by the way, after that one session, he said he wasn't going to go anymore because he knew more than the counselor did and she was ganging up with me against him.

Guest: Thank God he went that one time. She gave me a book called Why Is [00:15:00] It Always About You?, That was critical in helping me see and understand the situations in my life I'd been in and helping me realize my father was a narcissist and I didn't see that. On a scale of one to 10, my Dad was probably more of a two or three, whereas I think my Ex-husband was more like a 10, thinking I'm never going to marry my father. No way. I had married my father. I had married someone because that was the type of relationship that I had seen role modeled and that I was craving the attention and love for my father that I never got. It's taken me years of therapy to realize that was what the issue was. But that was one of the things. Why is it Always About You?, that book? Another book that really helped me determine leaving or not, because I'm an engineer and I need things to be analytical, was It's Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay. It would be examples of a different conversation or an event that had happened. She explained this event and it was if this is happening to you in this scenario, then 86 percent [00:16:00] people were happier if they left. I went through it all. And the result of it was about 32 out of the 36 examples, I would be better off if I left. That helped me see too, how much I had normalized this abusive behavior. Because it is totally verbal abuse. You're just abused to where you feel like you are totally worthless. The other thing I did, I had, my mom and I are very close and I'd given her a copy of Why Is It Always About You to read and said, mother, read this and then let's talk about it. My mom started reading it and she wasn't, two chapters in, and then she started telling me these stories about my Dad and my family, some I knew most I did not to that extent. So, I could really see that my Dad had been a lot of the genesis of why I thought this was okay and how I had been so vulnerable and didn't understand boundaries and taking care of myself and loving myself first and, all the things that I think create for a good positive mental health.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: You really said so much there that is so helpful, [00:17:00] so clear. You're incredibly articulate about this really painful, difficult, and it's not just a moment in your life. It's a decade. I want our listeners to understand that we all grow up in a family that we assume is normal, unless something happens to tell us it's not healthy and not normal. There's a lot of different types of normal but there aren't a lot of different types of healthy. When a child doesn't have a relationship with their father or with their mother that is mutual where the child can feel safe The child can feel like they can share their emotions. The child feels like they can have different opinions The child feels like they can explore different values The child doesn't go into adulthood knowing that's an option and that doesn't mean that they go into adulthood wounded and thinking that their childhood was terrible. They just go into adulthood not really understanding the give and [00:18:00] take of a relationship. And that's part of what I hear you saying made you vulnerable. The other part is that you tend to be fairly logical. You may not have been looking for those emotional cues that the body gives people. If people lean more towards thinking, they might not always be aware of the danger cues that their body, gives. I'm a therapist, I listen a lot to my body and I was in a conversation with somebody the other day who was in a difficult situation. And the other therapist in the situation was saying, Yeah, I think that's a good idea if you do that. And I thought I was going to throw up. And I said, Wow, I don't know. I would have agreed with this other person, except my body feels like it wants to throw up. So, I feel like we should pause. And we should not think so logically, but we should think about what would be the emotional fallout. One of the things our brain does is it's always scanning for safety. And when you said [00:19:00] you couldn't even find the words obviously you're very articulate, but if you go home and it's not safe. Your body does you a favor by shutting you down. It just says, don't talk, don't waste the energy because it can't be mutual. You can't be heard. It just sets you up for gaslighting. Again, we don't give much education to people about what's a healthy relationship. when I taught in a junior high for 20 years, I would say if you can't find words for something, that's a problem. If you're shut down, that's a problem. If your body feels sick when you're around this person for a reason you can't put into words, trust your body first and then figure it out. But you gotta figure it out. I really appreciate how much insight you've gained. This is what started you leaving, but how did you actually leave? Because that's where I find so many people stuck, is that they want to leave. Because of lots of different reasons, children, financial, [00:20:00] they can't. What helped you actually leave? 

Guest: It was so difficult. Oh my god, I want to start crying when I think about it. Like I said, my ex-husband had Separated me, so I didn't really have very many friends, and I had relocated for my job. Luckily, someone sitting in the cubicle beside me and I befriended each other, and I was able to talk with her some about my situation. She had a friend who wanted to rent a room out in his house. There were a few factors. As I mentioned, I went through this analysis with the books about whether I should stay or go. I talked to my mom about it, and my mom was great. Again, it gets back to the southern very strong, Christian background and upbringing. And she's if you're looking for my permission to leave you've got it. You don't have to stay because this was my second marriage. And I felt like a failure because I was in my second marriage and my first marriage was a narcissist too, but I didn't see it and realize it that I had done it again. And I think if you [00:21:00] don't get it the first time, the universe is going to keep sending it to you more and more. So, my mom gave me permission to leave.

Guest: That was really important to me at a deeper level. When I went to the East coast to visit my mom, I told my husband I had to have some time to think. I think he could see the writing on the wall, but I was gone for two weeks. I had the conversation with my mom. I read through the book. I did the analysis. So, at that point I decided I needed to leave. When I came back, I  told him I thought about it and I thought we needed to separate and that I needed some time. And it was very scary. And he wasn't very happy about it. I just packed up a few things, and moved into this room where this other person was. It was very scary. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Yeah, very scary. And the two things that you had that often people I work with don't have is you had your mom, your family support. It's amazing to me how often I've worked with people and their families don't support it, but you also had financial independence. 

Guest: [00:22:00] Exactly. And thank God I had a job. And the other thing I did, that we're not trained on as I was in any way growing up. Is that, you believe when you're in a marriage, you join resources and financials. I had put him on my  bank account, my financial assets, which I never should have done. Now I know that. And I tell people, don't do it keep your accounts all separate. But anyway, I didn't know that at the time. So luckily I had set up alerts on some of my accounts and I get this alert at night. Long story short, he had moved almost all of the money we had into his own accounts. So, I couldn't access any of it. Luckily I saw part of it and I was able to stop part of it. I remember it was like when you have an out of body experience, I stayed up all one night. Creating separate bank account, moving as much stuff as I could into it. He had set up transactions to move some other major funds. I was able to stop part of it. But not all of it online. As soon as the offices opened on the East coast, it was on the [00:23:00] West coast, so whatever they put at seven, I was at four in the morning talking to them to, Hey, this is what's going on. I need you to stop this transaction. I had to end up selling stock to pay my lawyer's bills. He had taken all of the resources, even though I was the one earning the money and working. He had moved all the liquid assets I had that I couldn't even pay my lawyers to do that.

Guest: Luckily I was in a position where I was working, I was making the money and I sold stock. But we had property together, right? I had a house and bills that I had commitments on. The people at the bank were great. And I explained the situation. And she told me, look at your account every day when a bill's coming in, put enough money in to pay that bill and then no more. Because he had gone to the ATM and he had drained the accounts as much as he could of everything before I could move at all. So then obviously I set up a separate checking account where my paycheck would go into it. And he stalked me. I had to have a higher private investigator because he was. Making up these stories about me [00:24:00] and about him. It was just stuff I never in a million years would have dreamed I would have had to have done in my lifetime. But, I did. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: How did you keep your mental health in good enough shape to continue forward? 

Guest: Would say three main things helped me.

Guest: I had a really good job and I had a boss that was supportive. It took me a while to tell him I had left my husband. Initially, I didn't do it because I'm a female engineer and I worked with all men. They wouldn't understand what I was going through and they would think if I messed up anything at work it's because she's going through a divorce. I waited a while to do that. But I had a good job, and it took a lot of time and energy and was a good distraction to help me feel like I could, gain some of my worth back.

Guest: Other tools that helped me, I had an excellent counselor in addition to the coach I had at work. 

Guest: I have a very strong faith in spirituality. And the person that I rented the room from took [00:25:00] me to his church. It's not the  traditional kind of mindset. It's Centers of Spiritual Living, if you've ever heard of it. That was what I really needed to help get better in touch with my spirituality and my faith and bringing back the tools that I needed to help me. Through my church and the classes, I met some other people who also then befriended me. They're one of the ones talked to me about another counselor that had helped her a lot. I started seeing him and he really saved my life. I would give him the full credit for helping me feel like I even was worth living, cause my self-esteem was so low that I just felt horrible. That really helped me a lot. then just the basics of starting to do the separation and rebuild your life again, I had the lawyer, and he's I know you need to go get your own place because, when you do this, the judge is going to look at what's your standard of living. And, [00:26:00] your standard of living is not sharing a room from a guy . I'm a director at a major company. I need to go get a good apartment. He helped me see, a little bit more of what I should have and working through it at that point in time. I really think that it boiled down to my counselor and my faith. 

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: That's incredible. I'm so happy for you. How do you define mental wellness now?

Guest: Loving yourself first by all means. And some tools that have helped me a lot in just understanding that. I don't know if you've read the Four Agreements or not, but the Four Agreements I think is incredible. I would say the Four Agreements and the work by Louise Hay, you can heal yourself, you can heal your life. I think that's how I would define mental wellness is now it is really loving yourself first and understanding and listening to your body, as you mentioned earlier, when something doesn't feel right. And the Four Agreements are all about, don't take it personally. It's not about you. My ex-husband and what he was doing was projecting his stuff on [00:27:00] me. It wasn't my issues. It was his issues, but I didn't see that. So don't take it personally, don't make assumptions, don't assume that all these other things are happening always be honest and integrity with yourself, which is so hard to do, and always do your best, so do your best and living by those agreements.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Your leaving and healing and rebuilding is really rooted in your spirit. Often when we talk about mental health, we don't really think of it as connected to spirit because people often conflate spirituality and religion and people have lots of intense feelings about religion, but through the whole conversation we've had, you beautifully Discuss that the biggest damage when you're in a relationship with a narcissist is what happens to your spirit. It's as if the light goes out. And intuitively, through some grace, through meeting the right person at the right time, listening to yourself, you found a way to renew your spirit. And that [00:28:00] really is so important for people to understand. This isn't just an intellectual pursuit. It's not just emotional healing. People have to decide, I am worth saving. Also, you really healed inside out, and that was, I have to revive my spirit. I have to revive my spirit. The Four Agreements is really a beautiful book in helping people to do that. As we begin to end, how many years has it been since that relationship ended? 

Guest: It's been about 14 years.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: What's that been like to fully step back into the spirit of who you are and to really heal yourself? 

Guest: It's been great to be on the other side. If I had to sum it up in one word, it's awareness. To be aware and to understand what's going on around you, what's going on with yourself and to be open minded and thoughtful. My therapist really helped me in thinking about this too. To almost be outside of yourself and be able to look at yourself, [00:29:00] be a witness to yourself. When I would react in a certain way. I would think about that later. Why did I do that? Where did this come from to really peel it back to understand, Oh, that was, what happened to me when I was a child, which really, it does come back down to that most of the time and understand just where did those feelings come from and recognize you always have a choice in how you're going to react and take a minute to think through that.

Guest: I think just gaining the awareness that you always have a choice and what you're going to say and what you're going to do and how you're going to act and who you're going to be around and you don't have to be around what I call like my ex-husband, these energy vampires. You have a choice. It's much better to be alone by yourself than it is to be in a relationship with someone that is sucking the life out of you. I wish I'd known all of this stuff back when I was in my 20s or teens or whatever, but I don't know if I would have been as open. I believe in the Buddhist saying when the student is ready, the teacher arrives. I feel like to some extent that's the way I [00:30:00] would have been too. But I also think If this could happen to me, I'm one of the strongest, most strong willed, independent people. I know men or women, and I think if this could happen to me, it could happen to anybody.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: I want to end by pushing back a little bit on that. want to give you the benefit of the doubt that had you had education in your 20s, you would have been a student. Because I've had this mental wellness program for 30 years, and I've taught this model of we share ourselves with another person. We share facts about ourselves, interests, opinions, emotions, and values, and those last three things, if it can't be mutual, if a person can't hear it, you're not going to be able to have a healthy relationship with them. Out of every skill I've taught, this is the skill that young people latch onto. Take [00:31:00] pictures to put on their phone, send me a text, could you send me that again? I run into them shopping at Christmas time and they'll say, this is the woman who taught me this. I find that it is innately in us to want a healthy relationship and that for generations, what was modeled was a type of relationship that worked for that kind of world, but we have to update what works for this world. And it really isn't one person having power over another. I don't even want to say it worked back then, what's important to me is that we let both men and women be in a relationship where both of them are powerful, both of them are whole, both of them are healthy, and both of them know how to be mutual. I've never seen anyone who's young, who wants a relationship, and most people do, not buy into that and not begin to look at who they're in friendships with, who they're in romantic [00:32:00] relationships with, and also how they're in relationship with their family, and not say, wow, what could I do differently? What could I ask for? Such as, could you stop and let me just finish my thought, right? Oh, you don't ever tell me what you feel. Do you know what you feel? No, I don't know what you feel. You need to figure it out. So, I want to, I want you to give your younger self the benefit of the doubt. That part of what is unfortunate is you didn't have the information, but when you had the information, you quickly transformed from a frog to a duck swimming out of that pond into your own ocean. And I just want to end by saying way to go. And I really encourage both men and women, because it's not just women in relationships with narcissists, it's men as well, too, to have the courage that you had to look at yourself and say I can be happier than this. Thank you so much for being on with us today.

Guest: You're welcome. Thank you very much. I think you are right. I wish, we had that [00:33:00] training and education and awareness back then that, that's being taught. You're doing a great service to people and helping them understand that.

MJ Murray Vachon LCSW: Thank you so much. This was great. 

Guest: I'm happy. I hope it helps someone else. 

 Here are my Inner Challenge insights. 

Insight number one. 

If you catch yourself holding back your thoughts, feelings, or values in a relationship, it's a good idea to use the tool of self-awareness to figure out what's going on. There could be a bunch of reasons behind it. Maybe you just need more time to figure out what you think or perhaps like today's guest you're hesitant because you feel like what you say will never be heard. It's normal to deal with this now and then, but when it becomes a daily thing, it chips away at who we are. And let's face it. Our sense of self is pretty darn important when it comes to navigating life.

Insight number two, 

It's important to recognize that everyone is a narcissist and having some narcissistic tendencies doesn't equate to having narcissistic [00:34:00] personality disorder, which is a very serious condition. Before passing judgment, it's crucial to understand that we all have moments when we may not be at our best. Perhaps we're tired or distracted, leading to being less attentive or self-absorbed. Additionally certain situations in our lives might make us more focused on ourself or trigger intense reactions that inadvertently hurt others. However, what distinguishes a narcissist is their consistent, inability, or refusal to acknowledge the harm their behavior causes. Unlike occasional lapses narcissistic behavior is pervasive and it occurs daily. 

Insight number three. 

My reaction to today's guest was quite visceral when she spoke about the profound role, the question, Who Am I?, Played in saving herself. It's incredible how three simple words can serve as a guiding light when we feel lost. Who am I? Am I the [00:35:00] 17-year-old? Who kills himself when cut from the team? No. Who am I? Am I the 40-year-old? Who steals money from work? No. Who am I? Am I the business executive who lives with a person who daily berates me. No. Hold on to this question. Who am I? Let it illuminate your path during life's pivotal moments. 

Insight number four. 

One of the toughest parts about living or working with a narcissist is often not even recognizing that they are one. Many people fall into the trap of believing they can reason with them. But it's crucial to grasp that a person who is a narcissist is unable to see things from your perspective. It's not just stubbornness. It's a cognitive limitation. Therapy relies on the capacity to cultivate self-awareness, something that narcissists fundamentally lack in interest and desire. This makes treatment [00:36:00] very difficult. 

Insight number four, 

I'd like to give the unsung hero award to our guests' mom. Do you know how much guts it took for this mom to share the truth with her daughter? To be honest, I often don't see this. I usually see parents rationalizing and minimizing the behavior of their narcissistic spouse. Why is this? Some like today's guests lack the tool of self-awareness. Also, narcissism tends to run in families. So, for many, it feels familiar. These families tend to create stories that rationalize and minimize such behavior such as, oh, that's just dad. He berates us when he drinks when actually dad finds it easy to berate other people, whether he drinks or not. Also, the narcissist is very good at reminding others of what he does well, and this also leads to confusion. And then there's the whole feeling trap thing. Lots of individuals even admit that they're [00:37:00] dealing with a narcissist because they really don't know how to leave. They're stuck in what to them seems like a never-ending cycle.

Insight number six.

It takes a village to heal. It takes a village to escape. I want to salute all the people and the authors of the books our guest mentioned today, who helped her find her way out. I especially want to thank her for paying it forward by sharing her story. I will put the books in the links. 

Thank you for listening. 

 If you or someone you love is in a relationship with a narcissist, please reach out and learn more about your options. This is your Inner Challenge.